Difference between revisions of "Talk:DS Shroom Ridge"

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(Sniki's Version)
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:::::: Try to compare this situation to a texture hack (even though Sniki modified more than just textures). All Texture hacks (even those of Custom Tracks) do get their own page (even if they copy the complete KMP) - just because from the outside, the track looks completely different and it would be confusing (for the end-users) to have them on one page. Are you proposing we should cram all texture hacks of tracks onto the original track page, too, with hundreds of "updates" for one track, all looking different?
 
:::::: Try to compare this situation to a texture hack (even though Sniki modified more than just textures). All Texture hacks (even those of Custom Tracks) do get their own page (even if they copy the complete KMP) - just because from the outside, the track looks completely different and it would be confusing (for the end-users) to have them on one page. Are you proposing we should cram all texture hacks of tracks onto the original track page, too, with hundreds of "updates" for one track, all looking different?
 
:::::: And you are free to update as many tracks as you want - and if they look completely different, you can also post them on a new page, just like Sniki did. Just don't start selling us small cosmetical updates like "I added one item box" and "I changed one single texture" as huge updates requiring a new page - that has never happened in the past, hasn't happened in this case and will not happen in the future.  
 
:::::: And you are free to update as many tracks as you want - and if they look completely different, you can also post them on a new page, just like Sniki did. Just don't start selling us small cosmetical updates like "I added one item box" and "I changed one single texture" as huge updates requiring a new page - that has never happened in the past, hasn't happened in this case and will not happen in the future.  
:::::: [[User:Leseratte|Leseratte]] ([[User talk:Leseratte|talk]]) 07:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC
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:::::: [[User:Leseratte|Leseratte]] ([[User talk:Leseratte|talk]]) 07:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
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::::::: ''First'', Snikis page '''does not''' satisfy the requirements I specified for an update to my course as instructed my [[Wexos]]. "No permission requested" -> I say it's needed. "''This is a community''" (as Wiimm says) - '''so ask me'''. It is ridiculous to compare this to reaching out to [[Nintendo]] for permission to use copyrighted imagery. This is an issue of '''complied course data, which took hard work to put together.''' "Improper attribution" -> yes, it does not satisfy the agreed instruction, and explicitly says "''similarities''" in the header. Comments or otherwise are moot - but they're there, and they're not being accepted, and the video's credits have been removed (this is a point - not something to counter). Fine, I accept your statement on the [[Custom Mario Kart:Privacy Policy#Published_Works_Policy|Published Works Policy]] . Since we obey it, let's '''read it''':
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:::::::* ''All posted content is the property of its respective creators''
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:::::::* '''If you are editing another author's work, first contact the author of the original content. [...] '''
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::::::: Right, last I checked Nintendo was okay with Homebrew, mods, and re-releasing content, so we '''cannot''' get permission from [[Nintendo]]. As per the ''Published Works Policy'', '''you can get permission from me, an actual human, not an organization.'''
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::::::: I'll say it again: '''covering for friends.''' --[[User:SuperMario64DS|SuperMario64DS]] ([[User talk:SuperMario64DS|talk]]) 07:57, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:57, 12 March 2018

Ermelber's unfinished version talk

To get textures in the final, you can also open at the left the *.carc file and on the right the *Tex.carc file. (I know this because I am the creator of MKDS Course Modifier)
Gericom 16:51, 19 January 2012 (CET)

Cars & stuff

Just out of curiosity... You will be adding cars, right? Simply releasing a version where it is the track without proper cars would not be enough, if that is what was planned. Remember, I did offer to do the KMP... -- SuperMario64DS 19:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we will add cars and all stuft like the nds course.
-- Ermelber 15:43, 15 June 2012 (CET)

SuperMario64DS's version talk

Jefe, SM64ds told me to use this page. i said yes. So now the page belongs to him. -- Ermelber 17:24, 27 September 2012 (CET)

Track Discussions

Some thoughts by me after playing the track 2 times:

  • Wow, this is SM64DS master peace!!
  • Only 2 item rows are 1-2 rows to less.
  • Why a double item row at the beginning.
  • Car routes and distances are very good.
  • Some enemies will stay a a position and try to drive always into the hill.
  • Missing some trick points at peak of the road hills.

Wiimm 11:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Very nice done, SM64DS! This version is a lot better than mine. Nice work!
-- Ermelber 17:07, 7 October 2012 (CET)

Thanks! Wiimm, I have taken the time to update this track to v1.1 and I will release it shortly, with all bugs fixed & CPU no longer getting stuck. The Item Boxes are supposed to be a close replica to the DS version of the course, and some are floating by on the road, and a key feature of this course was that it was originally harder to obtain items. I'm not sure about adding tricks on the one hill, it seems a bit un natural seeing that the cars also drive over the same area. I have also used your tools to lower the walls so you'll no longer get stuck. Most of this would not have been possible without your tools, so thank-you. Hopefully you'll use the updated version for your online tests. --SuperMario64DS 01:54, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I said thoughts because of the first impressions.
About the itemboxes. I understand your argument, but think about mine: If you play alone against cpus, you get every itembox you want. But if playing online with friends, single itemboxes are consumed by the first players and the following players have only minimal chances to get an itembox. And that's bad for the gameplay at all.
Wiimm 05:13, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Sniki's Version

This version of Shroom Ridge is a cosmetic update of my port:

  • The model is 1:1 for scale (even includes the concept I added to prevent players from getting stuck behind the railing at the tunnel)
  • KMP file data is the same:
    • Start Position - new X, Y rounded, Z same
    • Enemy routes:
      • Scale, settings identical
      • New positions added to start and end of routes
    • Items routes: similar case to enemy routes
    • Checkpoints: same number of checkpoints & keys (I think WSZST has a feature to auto-generate new checkpoints?)
    • Respawns: all the same
    • Routes: removed a few useless routes, and:
      • Same cam 1,2,3
      • Same car routes (most difficult task!)
    • Same (unmodified) AREA
    • Same camera settings

Though I generally don't mind, in this case I'm bothered that you did not ask my permission first, or award credit outside of your video's description (in which credit is only given for the car routes, which happened to be the most difficult part in planning the original version). Can I contest that this is not an original port containing original work, but an update of mine? Though I didn't plan on updating it any time soon, the cosmetic updates were nothing I was not skilled enough to do on my own, so I don't appreciate the difficult work put into the course data being taken. If you had at least reached out to me, I would have considered. For now, this is an update of my version, not it's own release. --SuperMario64DS (talk) 05:44, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

It was my wish to use the old KMP, because I/we like the characteristics of the track much and we play DS Shroom Ridge very often.
Trivia and contributions are not written yet. I think, Sniki will give you his respect.
-- Wiimm (talk) 14:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
That's very disrespectful. SuperMario64DS wanted it to be an update, so that will be the case, unless Sniki and SuperMario64DS agree to do it another way. It's your choice.
--Wexos (Talk | Contribs) – CT/MK8 Wiki Admin 15:43, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
What puzzles me is why anyone thought they could grant others the permission to use data I created on a whim, and why this perhaps was known all along, but credits were delegated only to the video's description and those credits were incomplete (only crediting for the car route planning). I do want to know who was involved, and how this came to be that this released was made and yet someone was unaware that this was an update, not a port, even if it was the audience.
It was meant to be a surprise release in the coming weeks, but I have been collaborating with another creator to release a fully updated version of my port (only borrowing the car planning, but rebuilding every other aspect). The majority of the model is already rebuilt, in similar fashion - increased complexion factor on the roads, smoothing, etc. What are we supposed to do now? Would it be considered plagiarism if we decide to integrate certain elemnts of Sniki's version others prefer the most? Or will we have to live with tis unofficial version perhaps being favoured more than our release?
It is my wish at the moment is for this not to be slated as v2, but in similar fashion to the v1.1i version (unofficial), and that we be given permission to view this version as something we can build upon thematically (not updating Sniki's work, but incorporating certain elements of Sniki's port into ours). --SuperMario64DS (talk) 16:36, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Is it now a new line or not?
I think, it is more than a new line, it's a remake that uses the old KMP. So it's like SM64 version: A remake of a Nintendo track with new KMP (simplified!).
And If I see, that SM64 will continue it's track, an own page for Snikis version is the right way. (read Talk:Volcanic Skyway II for arguments)
-- Wiimm (talk) 16:58, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
You're missing the point @Wiimm. Sniki remade the course model and used SM64DS's KMP and claimed all credits for it except for the vehicle settings. This is not about if it's a new design or not. If I would be SM64DS, I would be very pissed. But this is not my decision. @SM64DS, as I said, you decide what to do with this. If you want to change it to an unoffical update and change the version number to something else, then do it. If you want to revert the update (or whatever it is), then do it. It's your choice.
--Wexos (Talk | Contribs) – CT/MK8 Wiki Admin 17:35, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Maybe Sniki did it the wrong way. But the decision about an extra page can't be based on Sniki wrong or correct handling. And If I remember right, the page was incomplete without any explanation.
Anyway, using stuff of other authors is a usual way in the community. The community lives from learning and using other work. This is especially true for remakes of Nintendo tracks. It is not admissible to clone a Nintendo track and to forbid the cloning of an own track.
Another point: Discussion first, then activity (here removing pages). And so I wait for other meanings before I do anything else.
-- Wiimm (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
I proved it: At Snikis page description and contributions are missed completely. Comparing it with his other pages, it is clear, that the page was incomplete. The the best choice was, to give him a chance to complete it and to wait with the harsh critics.
Hey people: We want all the same: Fun with Mario Kart Wii. So be friendly and work together!!!
-- Wiimm (talk) 20:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
I thought I had said it enough. It's up to SM64DS if he agrees with a new page, and I don't think he does since he wrote "For now, this is an update of my version, not it's own release."
--Wexos (Talk | Contribs) – CT/MK8 Wiki Admin 14:40, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
I have compared both tracks too. Sniki remade the track and also modified BREES files for cars, trucks and bomb. Only VRCORN and some parts of KMP are copied and optimized.
KMP: The most relevant sections CKPT and ITPT (159 points in 7 sections, 202 in 4 before) are new. CAME and ENPT are copied and slightly edited. New itemboxes. Attributes of cars, trucks and bombs identical. Routes copied and optimized.
So it is clearly a remake. Because of the 1:1 scaling, the routes are similar. And I don't see any reason to not use another KMP as base, because we are a community. So it is usual to use achievement of others. I'll undelete the other page now and give Sniki a chance to add a description.
--Wiimm (talk)
You did not ask permission, you cannot pull this thing out of the air "but it's the community!". If you'd like, I can formally express licensing terms for my work. Or if that's not allowed, tomorrow I will make a profuse effort to cosmetically update every track on the wiki and make them new pages and liken them to "similar", since this is apparently allowed.
Sorry if I come across as crass, but it's the principle: no permission requested, improper/insulting attribution, blatant disregard to admin ruling, and disregard to my (reasonable) terms/request. What else? Once again, the credits have been removed from Sniki's video, creating the illusion that this is original work. And funnily enough, my comments on the video never get approved, so no one can see them.
In the meantime, this version gets the limelight in the current production of the official (read: made with permission) v2 update of my course, Wiimm.
I will not go as far as official takedowns (though unlike the case with Torran, this is legitimate), but it's the principle that should really be the enforcing factor, not the blatant fact that this a copy of someone else's work. I do not know if I should be further upset or simply appalled that you cannot see the reality of of situation - stolen work, and you covering your friend. I've had enough. It's not an original version, it's an update, and that's the final word. --SuperMario64DS (talk) 06:55, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
First, Snikis page still contains the section "Similarities to DS Shroom Ridge (SuperMario64DS)" which explicitly states what he took from your version. "No permission requested" -> because it is not needed. Or do you have permission from Nintendo to create your "Update" for their DS Shroom Ridge? - "Improper attribution" -> no, Snikis page stated what parts are from your version. Any comments or labelling or anything in videos has nothing to do with this Wiki. And no, a takedown notice is not legitimate, because the Wiiki Published Works Policy, which you accepted by having your content on this Wiiki:
"Posting content to the Wiki grants every [...] user the right [...], to modify this content and to release updated versions of the contents while giving credit to the content creator"
explicitly allows what Sniki did and nothing in the rules says that the release has to be on the same page as the original. The policy even states an update / new version is allowed even if the original author doesn't give permission. It doesn't state if the update is allowed to be on its own page, but that is just because that issue never came up in the past, not because it's not allowed.
Try to compare this situation to a texture hack (even though Sniki modified more than just textures). All Texture hacks (even those of Custom Tracks) do get their own page (even if they copy the complete KMP) - just because from the outside, the track looks completely different and it would be confusing (for the end-users) to have them on one page. Are you proposing we should cram all texture hacks of tracks onto the original track page, too, with hundreds of "updates" for one track, all looking different?
And you are free to update as many tracks as you want - and if they look completely different, you can also post them on a new page, just like Sniki did. Just don't start selling us small cosmetical updates like "I added one item box" and "I changed one single texture" as huge updates requiring a new page - that has never happened in the past, hasn't happened in this case and will not happen in the future.
Leseratte (talk) 07:39, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
First, Snikis page does not satisfy the requirements I specified for an update to my course as instructed my Wexos. "No permission requested" -> I say it's needed. "This is a community" (as Wiimm says) - so ask me. It is ridiculous to compare this to reaching out to Nintendo for permission to use copyrighted imagery. This is an issue of complied course data, which took hard work to put together. "Improper attribution" -> yes, it does not satisfy the agreed instruction, and explicitly says "similarities" in the header. Comments or otherwise are moot - but they're there, and they're not being accepted, and the video's credits have been removed (this is a point - not something to counter). Fine, I accept your statement on the Published Works Policy . Since we obey it, let's read it:
  • All posted content is the property of its respective creators
  • If you are editing another author's work, first contact the author of the original content. [...]
Right, last I checked Nintendo was okay with Homebrew, mods, and re-releasing content, so we cannot get permission from Nintendo. As per the Published Works Policy, you can get permission from me, an actual human, not an organization.
I'll say it again: covering for friends. --SuperMario64DS (talk) 07:57, 12 March 2018 (UTC)