Talk:DS Shroom Ridge (SuperMario64DS)/Old Discussion

This is not an original port (by SuperMario64DS)

This version of Shroom Ridge is a cosmetic update of my port:

The model is 1:1 for scale (even includes the concept I added to prevent players from getting stuck behind the railing at the tunnel)
KMP file data is the same:
- Start Position - new X, Y rounded, Z same
- Enemy routes:
  - Scale, settings identical
  - New positions added to start and end of routes
- Items routes: similar case to enemy routes
- Checkpoints: same number of checkpoints & keys (I think WSZST has a feature to auto-generate new checkpoints?)
- Respawns: all the same
- Routes: removed a few useless routes, and:
  - Same cam 1,2,3
  - Same car routes (most difficult task!)
- Same (unmodified) AREA
- Same camera settings

Though I generally don't mind, in this case I'm bothered that you did not ask my permission first, or award credit outside of your video's description (in which credit is only given for the car routes, which happened to be the most difficult part in planning the original version). Can I contest that this is not an original port containing original work, but an update of mine? Though I didn't plan on updating it any time soon, the cosmetic updates were nothing I was not skilled enough to do on my own, so I don't appreciate the difficult work put into the course data being taken. If you had at least reached out to me, I would have considered. For now, this is an update of my version, not it's own release. --SuperMario64DS (talk) 05:44, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

1. Analysis by Wiimm

I have compared both tracks too. Sniki remade the track and also modified BREES files for cars, trucks and bomb. Only VRCORN and some parts of KMP are copied and optimized.

KMP: The most relevant sections CKPT and ITPT (159 points in 7 sections, 202 in 4 before) are new. CAME and ENPT are copied and slightly edited. New itemboxes. Attributes of cars, trucks and bombs identical. Routes copied and optimized.

So it is clearly a remake. Because of the 1:1 scaling, the routes are similar. And I don't see any reason to not use another KMP as base, because we are a community. So it is usual to use achievement of others. I'll undelete the other page now and give Sniki a chance to add a description.

--Wiimm (talk)

2. Analysis of Snikis version by Wiimm

Because of length and structure, I created a new section. I have signed each subsection. So each subsection can be answered separately.

Some answers to Wexos

@Wexos: Your answer makes it very clear: Snikis version is not an update of SM64s version, because nearly all and in my opinion all important parts are new and only some parts are copied. A more detailed analysis comes below.

Wexos wrote: @Wiimm You haven't really done any track yourself from what I know. I don't think you understand what it feels like if someone would copy your work and claim all credits for it

I never created a complete track by my own, but I created KMP for many tracks. And I know, the KMP is more an technical step than a creative step. If you give me any track, I can create CKPT, ITPT, ENPT, JGPT in less than 2 hours. Routes and positions are very clear, because they follow the roads and borders of the track. So the only creative part of this is deciding splits and joins. And if I create a KMP, forget it, and create it a second time, then result is almost the same.

In my eyes, the modeling part is more creative. And for new tracks, the general design/layout is the most creative part.

-- Wiimm (talk) 10:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Comparison of both track versions

For my first analyses I wrote this log. Today I created top views of both tracks using »wkmpt draw -w ckpt,itpt,kcl TRACK.szs -od OUTPUT.obj«: SM64.png, Sniki.png

A week ago, I created the log file. After writing the summary it was clear, that Sniki made a new tracks with same origin and scaling. And he copied some parts of the enemy route. I think he used the old KMP first for testing and then he re-created some important KMP sections.

My summary: Sniki remade the track (model and minimap) and also modified BREES files for cars, trucks and bomb. Only VRCORN and some parts of KMP are copied and optimized. The most relevant KMP sections CKPT and ITPT are new. CAME and ENPT are copied and slightly edited. Itemboxes new. Attributes of cars, trucks and bombs identical. Routes copied and optimized. After undelting the page, Sniki uses his chance to document the copied parts. Before he hasn't a chance, because the page was deleted very fast.

Now let us compare both top views of the track: Layout is the same (what else, it is a remade of the same track). But KCL (and this means model), check points and item points are different. This makes my position more clear: It is a new track, that use some parts of another track.

-- Wiimm (talk) 10:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Statements of SM64

Let us analyze some of SM64s statements in the part KMP file data is the same:

SM64 wrote: Start Position - new X, Y rounded, Z same

Is this really an argument? Z is simply the middle of the road. So Sniki moved the point and doesn't change Z.

SM64 wrote: Enemy the same (in other words)

Sniki confirmed it.

SM64 wrote: Items routes: similar case to enemy routes

This is definitely not the truth! I think he chosen this word carefully because he knows the differences. He want to suggest the equality without saying it. So it's a rhetorical trick, and not his lat one.

SM64 wrote: Checkpoints: same number of checkpoints

What's bad with the same number of checkpoints? I think he wrote this, because he known that the checkpoints are new. Otherwise he had written same check points. Again a rhetorical trick to suggest equality.

SM64 wrote: Respawns: all the same

The are mostly the same. But why not comparing the number of respawns; for checkpoints he did it. Because the number is different?

SM64 picks out some aspects and suggest, that the KMP is the same, even if a section is completely different. If I read such overdone arguments with rhetorical trick to disguise the truth, I became angry I don't believe the author anymore. And from old times (@ mariokartwii.com) I already know this behavior of SM64.

Another question: If I create a complete new track NEW and use some custom objects and modeling parts of another part of track OLD, is NEW an update of OLD, or a new track that uses some parts of OLD?

-- Wiimm (talk) 10:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Final summary of Wiimm

In my opinion, Snikis version is clearly not an update of SM64s track. If reading the arguments of SM64, it looks like a simple update. But SM64 misleads the readers with rhetorical tricks and an incomplete comparison into the a wrong direction. He never told, that model, minimap, vehicle models, checkpoints and item points are clearly new.

Another point: This is a wiki, that offers information about MKWii from technical information to custom tracks/fonts/textures/objects/... So the page about a track is not owned by the user who created the track. And for uniformity the moderators decide about pages and its layout.

I see it very critical to delete pages only because one member wants it (here »Quick Course« and »DS Shroom Ridge«). It's a kind censorship. Nearly always it is better to inform at the new page about copied parts and give the page creator a chance to declare it. Fast deletion is the most bad solutions. For clearness: SPAM and illegal content must be removed immediately.

Now I have wasted some hours with a more deeper analysis and for writing this.

-- Wiimm (talk) 10:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Talk:DS Shroom Ridge (SuperMario64DS)/Old Discussion

Contents

This is not an original port (by SuperMario64DS)

1. Analysis by Wiimm

2. Analysis of Snikis version by Wiimm

Some answers to Wexos

Comparison of both track versions

Statements of SM64

More answers to Wexos

Final summary of Wiimm

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